Talk:Pogrom

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List of events named pogrom was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 18 February 2014 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Pogrom. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

Archives

Index

Archive 1	Archive 2	Archive 3
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Edit request 3 March 2025

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Description of suggested change: The characterization of these events as Pogroms is debated and they are given undue weight by including in the lede. Even the Wikipedia article for the Huwara rampage does not use the word Pogrom in the title, nor the October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel. The lede should only be for events that are definitively described as Pogroms, events such as these can be included in the body.

Diff:

Lavipao (talk) 00:40, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not done For the 2008 attacks, the text does not state in wikivoice that it was a pogrom, it states that it was labeled as a pogrom by Olmert, which is verified by reliable sources that directly quote the Israeli Prime Minister's description (not even remotely undue weight). ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 05:09, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'll note as well that we have plenty of reliable sources using the term "Huwara pogrom", and the Wall Street Journal link provided above is attributed on it's claim that October 7th was a pogrom; so by the standard you're seeking to impose there doesn't appear to be any actual issue here. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 05:47, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The argument isn't for removing these from the page, just from the Lede. These seems very cherry picked in a list of dozens of pogroms to include events that historical debate over the term Pogrom is still ongoing. Why are these relevant enough to be chosen to be in the lede? Lavipao (talk) 21:27, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request 3 March 2025

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Description of suggested change: This is an unsourced claim. The source lists one person, Olmert, calling this a Pogrom. There is no proof provided that this is a common name for the event

Diff:

Lavipao (talk) 21:29, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Done I believe that source is actually referring to the previous statement, so this is in fact unsourced. -- Lenny Marks (talk) 14:40, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request 3 March 2025

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Description of suggested change: Add to lede please! This has been widely reported as the most recent Pogrom in Europe

Diff:

Lavipao (talk) 21:41, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sources:

^[3]^[4]^[6] Lavipao (talk) 21:42, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Lavipao I am checking your sources.

Silkoff: Israeli people plus Wilders describe it as a pogrom, and also "many".
Jerus. Post: Israeli people describe it as a pogrom.
Telegraaf. An editor, in her column, describes it as a pogrom. Nowhere is there mention of the king describing it in these words, and actually, kings always being very careful when they talk about sensitive matters, it would surprise me greatly if he would have done that. But that is just my opinion. If you have a source for the king saying this, ~~I'll add it to the text~~. (I won't add it to the text, because first there has to be consensus that this was a pogrom. See below.)

Aha! Now I found November 2024 Amsterdam riots. Okay. This was a riot between football supporters. Maccabi supporters sang "fuck you Palestine", chased two men, beat one them with a belt, ripped Palestinian flags off, etc. (All from the WP page). Later, they in turn were chased and subjected to violence. Several people used the word "pogrom" but for example the mayor of Amsterdam regretted that she had used that word. She criticised Israeli and Dutch politicians for framing the violence as targeted attacks on Israelis by local Moroccans and Palestinians. She also said she had not been warned about Maccabi Tel Aviv supporters' history as "ultra-nationalists" before the match and called for an independent inquiry into the incident.

Not done Before adding text about these riots to the page pogroms, there should be consensus amongst editors that this was in fact a pogrom. A WP:RfC should decide, and I won't initiate this. Lova Falk (talk) 15:34, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reflist

^ Koutsoukis, Jason (15 September 2008). "Settlers attack Palestinian village". The Sydney Morning Herald. Archived from the original on 5 April 2023. Retrieved 14 November 2023. 'As a Jew, I was ashamed at the scenes of Jews opening fire at innocent Arabs in Hebron. There is no other definition than the term "pogrom" to describe what I have seen.'
^ "Opinion | Hamas Puts Its Pogrom on Video". The Wall Street Journal. 27 October 2023.
^ ^a ^b Silkoff, Shira (8 November 2024). "Israel decries 'pogrom' in Amsterdam as soccer fans come under attack by rioters". The Times of Israel. Retrieved 9 November 2024.
^ ^a ^b "'We were ambushed': Pogrom in Amsterdam wounds several, potential hostage situation". The Jerusalem Post. 8 November 2024. Retrieved 8 November 2024.
^ Marbe, Nausicaa (2024-11-08). "Amsterdam is synoniem geworden voor de eerste Europese pogrom na 7 oktober". Telegraaf.nl (in Dutch). Archived from the original on 9 November 2024. Retrieved 2024-11-09.
^ Marbe, Nausicaa (2024-11-08). "Amsterdam is synoniem geworden voor de eerste Europese pogrom na 7 oktober". Telegraaf.nl (in Dutch). Archived from the original on 9 November 2024. Retrieved 2024-11-09.

Armenian Massacres

Why is there no mention of the Armenian massacres by the Turks in 1895 and 1915 ? 73.235.238.157 (talk) 18:17, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I guess you mean: Hamidian massacres. The article does mention the word pogrom three times, but never with a source. So it would require a WP:reliable source in order to add it to this article. The second one is Armenian genocide. The article does not mention the word pogrom. So, please provide us with good sources that these are, in fact, progroms. Friendly, Lova Falk (talk) 19:06, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 April 2025

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Pogrom. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

I am requesting that:

"Modern historians give estimates of the scale of the murders by Khmelnytsky's Cossacks ranging between 40,000 and 100,000 men, women and children, or perhaps many more."

be changed to:

"Modern historians estimate that between 18,000 and 20,000 Jewish men, women and children died during the uprising"

Explanation:

Although many sources are provided for these numbers, they are not what most would consider "modern". The most recent source provided is from 2005 but the majority are from the 1990s.

More recent research on the uprising has provided newer estimates for the total number of Jews that perished. These methods are based on demographic data as opposed to first-hand accounts and government documents. This newer research methods provide two insights: lower Jewish fatality estimates and an upper limit to the total Jewish population affected by the uprising.

Studies from 2003^[1] and 2014^[2] that have used these methods have provided estimates within the range of 18,000–20,000. These studies ascribe many of these deaths to starvation, disease and displacement instead of "murders by Khmelnytsky's Cossacks".

What is more important is that the demographic methods these studies have used put an upper limit to the total Jewish population during the uprising at around 40,000-50,000. This suggests that the estimate of 100,000 Jewish fatalities is highly unreasonable.

The Khmelnytsky Uprising article already goes into this topic in great detail and they seem to have reached a consenus on either 18,000-20,000 or 15,000-30,000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmelnytsky_Uprising#Jews

TLDR:

I suggest that the fatality numbers be revised to the range that is suggested by recent sources and the consensus of Wikipedia's Khmelnytsky Uprising article (18,000-20,000). Similarly, it should be made clear that these deaths cannot be ascribed to direct violence by Cossacks and many were a result of starvation, disease and displacement. Vinidapoo (talk) 16:39, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

Hi Vinidapoo. I don't have access to your second source; I don't see the consensus in Khmelnytsky_Uprising#Jews. Also, the numbers in our article are very well sourced. However, I do see a discussion about the numbers in Khmelnytsky_Uprising#Jews and therefore I will add this sentence: "However, these figures are contested as being too high, with the lowest estimates suggesting that 18,000–20,000 Jews died out of a total population of 40,000, many due to disease and famine." I will also not close the edit request, so other editors can come along and maybe disagree with me. Friendly, Lova Falk (talk) 09:02, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

[smh-1] Koutsoukis, Jason (15 September 2008). "Settlers attack Palestinian village". The Sydney Morning Herald. Archived from the original on 5 April 2023. Retrieved 14 November 2023. 'As a Jew, I was ashamed at the scenes of Jews opening fire at innocent Arabs in Hebron. There is no other definition than the term "pogrom" to describe what I have seen.'

[WSJ_October_7_pogrpm-2] "Opinion | Hamas Puts Its Pogrom on Video". The Wall Street Journal. 27 October 2023.

[j363-3] Silkoff, Shira (8 November 2024). "Israel decries 'pogrom' in Amsterdam as soccer fans come under attack by rioters". The Times of Israel. Retrieved 9 November 2024.

[JPost.com-2024-4] "'We were ambushed': Pogrom in Amsterdam wounds several, potential hostage situation". The Jerusalem Post. 8 November 2024. Retrieved 8 November 2024.

[5] Marbe, Nausicaa (2024-11-08). "Amsterdam is synoniem geworden voor de eerste Europese pogrom na 7 oktober". Telegraaf.nl (in Dutch). Archived from the original on 9 November 2024. Retrieved 2024-11-09.

[6] Marbe, Nausicaa (2024-11-08). "Amsterdam is synoniem geworden voor de eerste Europese pogrom na 7 oktober". Telegraaf.nl (in Dutch). Archived from the original on 9 November 2024. Retrieved 2024-11-09.

[7] ttps://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1022330717763

[8] ttps://books.google.com/books?id=jVqqAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA100

[3]

[4]

[6]

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